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Friday, November 14, 2008 12:28 AM CST
Council goes slow on traffic cams
MASON CITY — City Council members chose to proceed with caution Thursday night rather than speed into a decision on cameras at stop light intersections in the city.

Don Nelson (no relation to the councilman) of Redflex Traffic Systems told the council his company could install mounted cameras free of charge that would get videotaped evidence of violations as well as photos of the license plates of the violators.

The Police Department would have the final say on who got a ticket, but Redflex would handle all the paperwork of sending a traffic ticket to the violator with photos of the evidence.

The service would cost the city nothing; Redflex makes its money by getting a cut on each traffic ticket paid.

Nelson provided statistics showing a decrease in traffic accidents in communities using Redflex cameras.

But Councilman Jeff Marsters challenged Nelson’s figures, saying his research showed big increases in rear-end accidents at intersections that had Redflex cameras.

“People slam on their brakes because they don’t want to get a ticket for going through the intersection,” said Marsters.

Nelson said Marsters’ figures included cities served by Redflex competitors whereas his figures came only from Redflex communities.

Councilman Scott Tornquist said he’d like to see data on red light violations and accidents in Mason City. “I’m not aware it’s a problem,” he said.

Councilman Steve Tynan questioned Nelson about a lawsuit filed against Redflex in Davenport. The Iowa Supreme Court recently ruled in favor of the city.

Tynan pointed out the court only ruled that Davenport was within its rights to have the Redflex system.

“The court did not rule on constitutionality. If that would come up, I would not want to put our city and the city attorney through the expense of that,” he said.

Marsters said he was concerned about the message being sent to the community if the program was initiated.

“There’s no doubt if we implement this, there will be considerable tickets issued. We’re a retail hub. We want to be a welcoming community. What will this say?”

Tornquist agreed. “I want a safe community but I am concerned about tone,” he said.

Police Chief Mike Lashbrook said his department will continue to study the feasibility of putting the system in place.

“This is very preliminary,” he said. “It’s a public safety issue. There are intersections in this community that are almost impossible to enforce by a police officer.”

In other action, City Administrator Brent Trout presented information on several Iowa cities that have “quiet zones” — railroad crossings with barriers preventing vehicles from crossing them when gates are down.

But they are expensive, said Trout. The city of Boone spent $133,000 five years ago for medians at just four of its crossings.

In Mason City, there are several crossings where gates would have to be installed.

Supreme court OKs camera use

MASON CITY — The Iowa Supreme Court has ruled there’s nothing illegal about red-light cameras like the ones being considered for Mason City.

In August, the court ruled against Thomas J. Seymour, who challenged a 2006 speeding citation claiming the Davenport city ordinance pre-empted state law. Davenport installed cameras in 2004. They are made by Redflex Traffic Systems, Scottsdale, Ariz., the same company that would install Mason City’s cameras.

The cameras can be programmed for many things, including speeders. In Mason City, for now, they are being considered for stop light violators.

In the Davenport case, the court ruled the Legislature has “expressly authorized local governments to establish rules of conduct related to rules of the road.”

Sioux City approved a contract with Redflex Systems in December 2006 but put installation of the cameras on hold pending the outcome of the Davenport case.

The city of Clive also suspended its use of Redflex Systems but reinstated it on Oct. 1, about a month after the Iowa Supreme Court ruling.

— By John Skipper

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Showing The Last 38 comment(s) Comments On This Story

KenS wrote on Nov 16, 2008 7:26 PM:

" In London and Suffolk, people do feel safer. They believe the cameras are needed because the constabulary cannot be everywhere.

Dateline: Chicago. Mayor Daley, while I may not agree with his other policies, has called for, and installed safety cameras to deter crime in certain areas.

Again I shall say, only those who break the laws, need fear the cameras.

It was within my lifetime, where we had neighbors. And those neighbors would report crime if they saw it, and knew who were strangers to the community, and who were not. If it were kids, they had no problem at all to call the parents. You had no chance what-so-ever to make it home before the phone rang.

Now, we don't have neighbors at home most of the day, and travel has become easy, so strangers are litterally all over.

Besides, a camera has much better eyesight and recall than the woman at the corner. "

comon wrote on Nov 16, 2008 3:00 PM:

" Ezekiel.....On another site "Election good for gun sales" you say you are thinking about putting a 155mm big gun in your lane. Aren't you using a police state mentality yourself? I think you are spending too much time in that turnip bin! "

Ezekiel wrote on Nov 16, 2008 2:31 PM:

" igiveup:

Get an encyclopedia and read the aricle on Political Science. Maybe then you will see that Fascism and Socialism are diametrically opposed to each other. "

Ezekiel wrote on Nov 16, 2008 2:16 PM:

" Spy Cams are a clear cut manifestation of a police state mentality. Neither Left Wing folks, Centrists, nor Right Wing folks should be subjected to such authoritarianism. I hope the Council of MC avoids this trap. IF those spy cams are put in place by these Redflex con artists, then a lot of us to the West of Mason City will take our business to Fort Dodge. Marsters is right about this. "

hereinmcia wrote on Nov 16, 2008 12:37 PM:

" heres what im going to do. im gonna take my plates off my car. make my own plates. they will be paper plates. im going to show them i dont give a crap about these cams! its that simple my friends...... "

dblr wrote on Nov 16, 2008 9:55 AM:

" IMHO London and Suffolk are one step away from being like in the book 1984. We don't need this kind of junk here in the USA. First its traffic light and speed cameras and soon it will be like London and Suffolk where the only place that does not have spy camera is in your home, who really wants to live like that, not me! "

KenS wrote on Nov 16, 2008 5:33 AM:

" From the BBC, London and Suffolk has cameras to curb "anti-social" behavior. It is a system that can talk directly to the offender if need be, on a loud speaker from a dispatch center. "

igiveup wrote on Nov 15, 2008 8:59 PM:

" Ezekiel wrote on Nov 14, 2008 7:39 PM:

" lovefreedom:

This igiveup character takes me to task (again) for my politics. That is fine; its nothing new. However, in the process he proves he has no clue what he is talking about. He doesn't even know the difference between a Fascist and a Socialist. And you defend someone like that who is too ignorant to breathe?.....You made my point Zekie, the facist socialist. And I breathe just fine. Without the governments help. Hows bout you???? "

shilo wrote on Nov 15, 2008 1:49 PM:

" Kens, I agree with you. And I find it to be double talk on Marsters part. He thinks watching people in our parks (that alone creeps me out....) is ok but watching for law breakers is a no no. Strange.... "

shilo wrote on Nov 15, 2008 1:46 PM:

" Welcome to the electronic age. Does it really matter how we catch crooks and violators as long as they are caught? They're violators and criminals for crying out loud! They don't deserve a break. They don't give othrts a break when they break the laws. Which in turn causes innocent victims of accidents.
They make life H for the rest of the law abiding citizens. Film them and BOOKUM DANO! "

flyguy wrote on Nov 15, 2008 6:53 AM:

" Does anyone really believe that having a camera at the intersection is going to hurt Wal-mart's business? I say lets just put the signs up anyway warning about the cameras, just like putting a burglar alarm sticker on your window works as good as an actual alarm. "

KenS wrote on Nov 15, 2008 6:18 AM:

" Mr. Marsters made this comment: “There’s no doubt if we implement this, there will be considerable tickets issued. We’re a retail hub. We want to be a welcoming community. What will this say?”

It will say we value safety over profit. It will say, Welcome to Mason City, obey our laws. "

KenS wrote on Nov 15, 2008 6:15 AM:

" Only those who violate the laws, should have an issue with this system. As someone rightly pointed out, there is no difference between this system and parking a Law Enforcement Officer out at an intersection 24/7.

Also as I understand it, the company, Redflex, does all the work in examining tapes, but the final decision lays with a local officer prior to a ticket being issued. "

Halos wrote on Nov 14, 2008 9:10 PM:

" Sigh...I wish we could take the best of the right and the best of the left, meet in the center and go on from there..... "

bradchaffee wrote on Nov 14, 2008 8:55 PM:

" Take this for whatever you want, but these systems do work. Not only do they take pictures of the actual plates, and if you obscure the plate thats a violation as well, also in that picture is your face. I know, I had one mailed to me, and right there was my plate and my face and that is very hard to dispute in Court. It wasn't in this country, it was in Germany, and Europe has using these cameras very effectively. The Germans still have the autobahn with unlimited speed limits and have very few accidents and very few traffic violations. Of course, we all know, Europe is full of socialist societys but thats another topic. The New York State Thruway systems use cameras as well to catch toll jumpers and that system is VERY effective. "

Ezekiel wrote on Nov 14, 2008 8:13 PM:

" Another:

You are right. "

flyguy wrote on Nov 14, 2008 8:11 PM:

" How is videoing someone breaking a law in public view, on a public road the same as opening someone's mail? If a cop happened to be there you would get stopped, whats the difference? Too many people have forgotten that driving is a privelege, and as a result we drive while texting, or intoxicated, or just plain wrecklessly. "

Another Day Older wrote on Nov 14, 2008 8:09 PM:

" flyguy - You just don't seem to get it. It's just one more intrustion into our lives by electronic means. No one is saying they don't want to obey traffic ordinances, they just resent the enforcement methods. How far will they go? They will go as far as they are allowed. How about we just conduct random searches in town, how about we tap phone calls, how about we open mail. In for a penny, in for a pound. "

Ezekiel wrote on Nov 14, 2008 7:39 PM:

" lovefreedom:

This igiveup character takes me to task (again) for my politics. That is fine; its nothing new. However, in the process he proves he has no clue what he is talking about. He doesn't even know the difference between a Fascist and a Socialist. And you defend someone like that who is too ignorant to breathe? "

flyguy wrote on Nov 14, 2008 6:45 PM:

" I love how people are so against having to obey the law. These cameras are just a new means of enforcing an existing law. If you drive by the law, then what are you worried about. As for things to obscure the plate, Mythbusters tested lots of options and none proved to work, plus they are illegal and can get you pulled over by a real cop. "

Another Day Older wrote on Nov 14, 2008 5:34 PM:

" ...my other question is who brought up this idea in the first place? I think I know and I think we need to send out an APB for Sheriff Andy Taylor to come home quick because Barney's letting the power go to his head and the next thing he's liable to do is get the bullet out of his pocket, put it in his gun and shoot someone. "

Halos wrote on Nov 14, 2008 5:06 PM:

" If this system were put to use in Mason City, would the cost of the tickets go up? Just curious. If someone runs a red light, breaking the law is breaking the law, but we shouldn't forget that Redflex Systems is in business to make money...they're not doing it as a good deed! Another thing...with people talking about the Patriot Act and Big Brother...loss of freedoms doesn't happen all at once with a big bang, it happens incrementally...a little here, a little there, until it adds up and there's nothing you can do about it. We can reason away ANY chipping away at freedoms...for instance, we don't have cameras in dressing rooms NOW, but wouldn't it be a good idea? Cut down on shoplifting, thereby saving you money when you shop...or to keep you from being assaulted....you can reason away almost anything... "

sassy100 wrote on Nov 14, 2008 3:30 PM:

" We have dozens of these spy cams on our freeways in Az now. They don't have to have any warnings posted ahead of where the cams are placed. And as far as a cover for the license plate, they already thought of that too. If any license plate is not totally visible, including the state and date stickers, it can be another ticket. Minor violation, but an instant $80 bucks just for that.

They have been installing more and more of these cams every weekend. Makes for good revenue. I'm not hiding anything or worried about a speeding ticket, but don't like this kind of invasion just the same. "

igiveup wrote on Nov 14, 2008 3:04 PM:

" Zekie is lost. He will vote for a facist but doesn`t want fascist cameras.Although there are camera`s everywhere, guess that really does not count. "

mnmaniac wrote on Nov 14, 2008 2:49 PM:

" Seems to me, it would be fairly easy to construct a license plate cover which is capable of defeating the photocop.

Construct the cover of clear plastic with horizontal bars extending the length of the plate. The bars would be angled so as to allow reading of the license plate number at ground level (by a police officer.) However, the bars would obscure the plate number when seen from an elevation (by a photocop.) "

shilo wrote on Nov 14, 2008 1:46 PM:

" Ezekiel, those cameras would make me feel safer knowing something is slowing or watching the speeders who ignore lights. Much like a security guard makes you feel safer. "

shilo wrote on Nov 14, 2008 1:40 PM:

" gardenplot, speed kills. Having no license doesn't. "

shilo wrote on Nov 14, 2008 1:36 PM:

" I see nothing wrong with watching for violaters. If people are driving like they should be this shouldn't be any problem for them.
Mr Marsters, the last time I checked it's the driver in the rear who's at fault for the rear end collision. Maybe that driver in the rear should watch better what's going on up ahead of them. If he sees a yellow light he also should be slowing down and not following so close they can't stop fast. It's called "defensive driving" Mr. Marsters. You're in favor of oogling innocent people in parks....so why not catch traffic violaters?
AMaybe these cameras will aide in lessening the # of accidents at Eisenhauer and 18. I've seen many people fly through red lights. I almost got broadsided by a speeder. Like some one said "It's not like they want to put tem in a cressing room or bathroom."
And Vince, It woulddn't cost the city any money. No cop has to be paid special to view. It's no different than a cop sitting up over a hill waiting to catch violaters. At least everyone would know someone is watching and not hiding out in wait. "

Arthur wrote on Nov 14, 2008 1:26 PM:

" The red light camera only operates when the traffic light is red. The law reads that a vehicle must stop at an amber light IF and only if it is safe to do so.

Redflex, the camera company, does all of the work. No time is put in by city staff to review the results of the camera. There is no cost in expense or time associated with the red light cameras.

The requirement to posting a sign at an intersection saying that there is a red light cam is the same as putting up a sign at no camera intersections saying "Run the light, no one is watching". Fear of the camera, even if one is not present, may incentivize red light runners.

Not all of the cameras in stores are operational - just hollow shells, but they put fear into some crooks. "

gardenplot wrote on Nov 14, 2008 12:47 PM:

" Drivers with No Auto Insurance, No Valid Drivers Licence, Expired Registrations,& Unpaid fines are the Criminals MC should target. Figure out a way to catch these violators. Why not put cameras in the Parks where the vandals hang out instead of on stop lights? The ROI may surprise you. "

lostinthenorth wrote on Nov 14, 2008 12:11 PM:

" I beleive these cameras have to be marked ahead of time saying it is a camera controlled intersection?? If not i believe it can be challenged in court as a form of intrapment. My theory is obey the law and one does not have to worry bout any of this nonsence. "

eighteenwheelsandadozenroses wrote on Nov 14, 2008 11:14 AM:

" Imagine how safe and easy driving would be if everyone drove as if there were an officer watching them, you should, because you never know, cameras are a good thing, they enforce the law automatically, rather than letting an officer give you a warning, or ignoring the offense entirely because they don't want to miss the end of shift, or get their shoes wet, or miss doughnut break, install cameras everywhere for redlights and speed, yesterday isn't soon enough. "

Renee wrote on Nov 14, 2008 9:39 AM:

" I am about where you are "OK". I haven't really decided where I stand yet, probably because I don't have strong opinions one way or the other on this. Getting a ticket for breaking a law is not "unconstitutional" it is just life. And a camera is no more "unconstitutional" than a police officer stationed on a PUBLIC road with a PUBLIC stoplight. (It's not like there ar cameras in dressing rooms).
However, if this is not really a problem for Mason City, then it may just be a non-issue that is being made into an issue.
I have two questions/concerns. A friend of mine got a ticket after going through a YELLOW light in San Diego. It was over $400. Are these cameras going to ticket on YELLOW or on RED? And are they going to be the same dollar amount that we would currently receive from MCPD for running a red light, or will it be exceedingly more from this outside company? If either of these circumstances would apply to Mason City (ticket on yellow, extremely high fines) I am opposed. But if neither of these apply and it helps drivers become more responsible and cautious (I think most are already, obvious exceptions) then it might not be a bad thing. "

OK wrote on Nov 14, 2008 8:07 AM:

" I haven't decided yet if I would be for or against the spycams as I haven't researched the whole idea yet. But what I question is all the negative response to something that tickets people for breaking the law. If you're driving responsibly, what do you have to worry about? It's probably the people who are on their phones, texting, working on their laptops, etc. who are concerned about the cameras. Yes, those devices are distracting and those people would be more vulnerable to getting tickets. "

Ezekiel wrote on Nov 14, 2008 6:58 AM:

" Good work MC Council. Kill this Fascistic spy cam idea! Marsters is right about the negative message it sends to those of us that come from outlying areas to shop in MC. "

Resident wrote on Nov 14, 2008 6:38 AM:

" MEMO TO CITY COUNCIL: JUST SAY NO! This is a stupid and bad idea. "

Vince wrote on Nov 14, 2008 5:49 AM:

" Some police officer has to sit and be paid to view (everyday) 24 hours worth of video tape.

Which pretty much means you have to pay 24 hours worth of EXTRA pay everyday, just to view these tapes.

Which means you have to send out tons of fines etc. just to pay for that. "

Vince wrote on Nov 14, 2008 4:45 AM:

" It's not going to cause or lessen accidents to any great degree in my opinion.

What it does do is open up an avenue for fine abuse, to increase local govt. coffers.

I also don't like the idea, of an outside party making dollars everytime someone gets a ticket either.

However, cameras should be installed at all intersections. Paid for and controled by the city solely. BUT it shouldn't be for minor traffic violations. But as a informitory device for accidents, collisions and injury/deaths.

Just like the parking lots in malls should all be video taped, in case someone is assualted or abducted. but not for fines such as spitting on the sidewalk...... "

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